Curse

Ghull Ka · Mar 23, 2011, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGizzy

But I could see where if I were going to start playing another profession or something, I would possibly want my much-loved main toon along for the ride. Just probably not enough to be willing to pay for it. *chuckling*

Right! It'd be like a mentoring program -- Professor Main is along for the ride to show New Alt how it's done!

You could make your MH'd main a /P and load it with "Fall Back!" "Stand Your Ground!" "Make Haste!" "Never Surrender!" and similar skills so he can scream at your new alt like a proper instructor would.

Gli · Mar 23, 2011, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

If you start from a level playing field (2 players, each with 7 heroes), and then add MH to the picture, one of those players can suddenly clear elite areas by himself in a respectable amount of time.

How is that not a paid "advantage". One of them can do something the other can't.....for a price....

Of course it's a paid advantage. That's the whole point. It's the exact same kind of paid advantage a Nightfall buyer has while playing Prophecies content compared to a Prophecies-only player playing Prophecies content. And as such there's nothing wrong with it.

Xiaquin · Mar 23, 2011, 04:15 PM // 16:15

I want to start out by saying I love analogies. I love using them, I love reading them and they speak louder than the most long-winded arguments using fewer words.

However, as epic as this could have been, I'd like some clarification, because it doesn't sound right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by novawhiz

So to apply this to your epic hamburger analogy: Anet sold hamburgers, they were all the same, and all had a one time only cost. It was understand by the customers that after they bought this hamburger, they would not be expected to buy more ketchup and lettuce and mustard for other extra fees. There was no such as thing as bigger or jucier or more condiment-full hamburgers. We all spent the same money on the hamburgers, and we all got the same hamburgers.

Well, if hamburgers represent what Anet sold, that sounds like campaigns. If that's true, you're claiming they're all the same and came with the same flavors, which is not correct. If not, please explain.

Karate Jesus · Mar 23, 2011, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

Of course it's a paid advantage. That's the whole point. It's the exact same kind of paid advantage a Nightfall buyer has while playing Prophecies content compared to a Prophecies-only player playing Prophecies content. And as such there's nothing wrong with it.

So, you're suggesting that if they sold a campaign that allowed people to do DoA in half an hour solo, you'd be ok with it?

Karate Jesus · Mar 23, 2011, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasai

Define "respectable amount of time" and how, in any way, it impacts actually playing the game. Timed master rewards are easily accomplished with H/H, and easily with 7 heros. What is your arbitrary time limit that defines "advantage", and how much slower than that is "disadvantaged". Are you really saying that people have an entitlement to not only finish content. but to also finish it within a defined time period?

What? No.

I'm going by the basic, standard definition of an advantage. For example, if you were an Olympic hurdler and suddenly the Olympics allowed every contestant who paid an extra fee to take 30 seconds off of his/her time, would that be a paid advantage?

Yes. This isn't rocket science. As most people have come to understand tin this thread, Mercenary Heroes are a paid advantage. You can't even argue that they're not anymore. It's just the truth.

The argument should now be whether or not it's justifiable (which some people have jumped onto) or trivial.

If you want to know my personal opinion, then I'll give it here:

Anet is a video game company with a parent company over it's head. Meaning that they have to produce in order to keep their doors open. Whether they like how they do it or not, they have to make money or NC Soft would shut them down. I think over the years, the model has drifted further and further from the original ideology of the game, but it's still a decent game. The original creators of the game are close to gone, so the themes and virtues of the game have changed. That's to be expected.

I think this is a step over my caution line in the direction of cash shops, but I'm probably not getting GW2 anyway, so I'm not really all that worried about it. I just really respected Anet over the years as a company, and part of me keeps hoping they'll live up to it again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasai

Good luck on your continued quest to leverage this into a freebie.

For the last time, I do not want Mercenary Heroes for free. I haven't played GW in almost 3 months.

I could not care less. If you had read the OP, or really any of the first 3 pages of posts, you would know that.

I was simply interested in different players opinions.

Gli · Mar 23, 2011, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

So, you're suggesting that if they sold a campaign that allowed people to do DoA in half an hour solo, you'd be ok with it?

I'd question the powercreep such a campaign introduced. But how much time did the Nightfall and EotN campaigns/expansion shear off the time of a complete UW run? And everyone seems OK with that.

X Dr Pepper X · Mar 23, 2011, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Yes all purchased items are advantages. But cosmetic items are a justifiable advantage.

They in no way whatsoever affect the in game mechanics or economy. They do not exclude other players from the metagame. They do not affect other player experiences significantly except visually at all.

Merc heroes are a non justifiable advantage. They will affect the in game economy (people who can roll through all areas faster will be able to kill faster and accumulate gold faster). They affect how I play.

They are an advantage which is not cosmetic in nature. They provide bonuses in efficiency and strength to the player and exclude others.

Gli · Mar 23, 2011, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Extra campaigns are purchased advantages, and they sure as hell completely excluded the Prophecies-only player from the metagame when it comes to playing in the UW.

And hey, mercenaries don't exclude people from the metagame in the slightest. So what is that all about?

Karate Jesus · Mar 23, 2011, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasai

And then there is this.

One player can put on a costume, get a new hairdo, go pick a pet out of the menagerie without capping it in the wild, go pick up any skill with a tome, get tengu weapons, change name, change gender, create a 9th char, get another storage pane, and... another can't.

If that is the simple definition.. then all purchased items are paid for advantages, aren't they.

None of that is content. The "game" portion of the game has never truly been affected like this outside of campaigns. Just seems like a drift from the felt values portrayed by the game and staff.

I can justify campaign advantages. I just can't justify a cash shop item adding that much of an advantage to the game.

X Dr Pepper X · Mar 23, 2011, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Campaigns are completely justfiable.

They are an extremely standardized format of expanding the metagame. Meaning, people will accept the fact that campaigns will become the new playing field.

Microtransactions are very non standard. There is no incentive to buy them as they do not contain much content to play through EXCEPT for the fact they will offer advantages.

Campaigns are not the same type of advantage as microtransactions.

TheGizzy · Mar 23, 2011, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Dr Pepper X

They are an advantage which is not cosmetic in nature. They provide bonuses in efficiency and strength to the player and exclude others.

I have more gold and other items than my husband or my best friend. I finished all three campaigns & EotN faster than them. This was due, in great part, to my having immediate access to any skill in the game for myself or my heroes. I now spend a considerable amount of time running around with them so they can cap the skills I've had for months.

In other words, the skill packs provided bonuses in efficiency and strength to me and excluded others.

I can say the same thing about the Fire Imp which, incidentally, was not limited to pre-searing. I left pre at lvl12 and continued using my Imp until I got to lvl20... I think I was at Yak's Bend before I hit 20. My husband is doing LDoA on a pre-toon and is dragging his Imp around with him. This is allowing him to farm the pre-searing Zaishen quests faster and more efficiently than players who don't have the Imp... he can wipe those mobs faster than someone without the Imp and thus farm more XP off of them, not to mention drops.

My extra storage panes allowed me to hold onto many more items early on in my experience which are of use to me now... including a ton of items I'm able to sell for a hefty profit now that I understand what they're worth. I paid extra for those, too.

None of these benefits to my efficiency & strength can be obtained without spending money. You must buy an edition that includes the Imp, or you don't get it. You must buy extra panes to get storage above the 8 toons you get with all three campaigns. You must buy the skill packs to have something like say, Signet of Spirits, right away. You cannot duplicate the benefits of these things in-game.

You can, however, grab a friend or two and run around with 8 identical professions and some fantasy uber-bar that allows you to roll through FoW, UW, The Deep, etc.

Without spending a dime.

Karate Jesus · Mar 23, 2011, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGizzy

In other words, the skill packs provided bonuses in efficiency and strength to me and excluded others.

You can access those same skills without paying a dime (outside of paying for campaigns, which again I feel is justifiable).

You can't access 4 mesmers without paying. 1-to-1, you lose an advantage.

Again, that's not even the question. Is it justifiable or trivial? I think we have to keep coming back to that. If it's neither, in your mind, then we have a problem. If it is one or both, then Anet's chosen the right path for you.

FYI: I like playing Devil's Advocate

Gli · Mar 23, 2011, 05:00 PM // 17:00

But you can't access them straight out of the box. It takes a pretty long time to get an account up and running at full skill efficiency. I've been helping my neighbor along, a few hours most days, and it's already taking weeks.

That's WEEKS spent being ineffecient, not making as much gold as you could, and for a double whammy of wealth deprivation, spending it on skills to unlock them for your heroes. The unlock packs are a VAST advantage for starting PvE players. And it's exactly the kind of advantage mercenaries arguably provide: save time, make more money.

Essence Snow · Mar 23, 2011, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGizzy

I have more gold and other items than my husband or my best friend. I finished all three campaigns & EotN faster than them. This was due, in great part, to my having immediate access to any skill in the game for myself or my heroes. I now spend a considerable amount of time running around with them so they can cap the skills I've had for months.

In other words, the skill packs provided bonuses in efficiency and strength to me and excluded others.

I can say the same thing about the Fire Imp which, incidentally, was not limited to pre-searing. I left pre at lvl12 and continued using my Imp until I got to lvl20... I think I was at Yak's Bend before I hit 20. My husband is doing LDoA on a pre-toon and is dragging his Imp around with him. This is allowing him to farm the pre-searing Zaishen quests faster and more efficiently than players who don't have the Imp... he can wipe those mobs faster than someone without the Imp and thus farm more XP off of them, not to mention drops.

My extra storage panes allowed me to hold onto many more items early on in my experience which are of use to me now... including a ton of items I'm able to sell for a hefty profit now that I understand what they're worth. I paid extra for those, too.

None of these benefits to my efficiency & strength can be obtained without spending money. You must buy an edition that includes the Imp, or you don't get it. You must buy extra panes to get storage above the 8 toons you get with all three campaigns. You must buy the skill packs to have something like say, Signet of Spirits, right away. You cannot duplicate the benefits of these things in-game.

You can, however, grab a friend or two and run around with 8 identical professions and some fantasy uber-bar that allows you to roll through FoW, UW, The Deep, etc.

Without spending a dime.

Now take all of those advantages available from the cash shop and lump them together.......

Put all the cash shop advantages Fire Imp, Skill unlocks, Extra Storage, and Mercinary Heros on one player and then on another don't. Now the margin is pretty large and blatently obvious. Alone each one doesn't look like much but lumped together they compound into something significant. Then consider what might come in the future and lump that in....etc...etc...Eventually it will become a major problem.

Karate Jesus · Mar 23, 2011, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

But you can't access them straight out of the box. It takes a pretty long time to get an account up and running at full skill efficiency. I've been helping my neighbor along, a few hours most days, and it's already taking weeks.

That's WEEKS spent being ineffecient, not making as much gold as you could, and for a double whammy of wealth deprivation, spending it on skills to unlock them for your heroes. The unlock packs are a VAST advantage for starting PvE players.

But you still have access to the same things. Being inefficient is part of the beginner's experience of any game. I'm not making the efficiency argument. I don't think it can hold water. My thought is access.

When you compare two players 1-to-1 who both own all 3 campaigns and EotN, what cash shop items add in-game advantages that would make one player "better" than the other.

The Fire Imp is definitely arguable in Pre-searing, but not after (because of Mysterious and other summoning stones). Mercenary Heroes provide an advantage due to the imbalance of the professions in PvE.

I can't think of anything else that does that.

EDIT: Essence Snow and I seem to be hive-minding. The graph Snow posted makes a lot of sense. Over time, these cash shop advantages will add up, especially if they keep doing it. Will there be a day in the not-so-distant future where players won't let other players into their party unless they have the mini pet that resurrects players every 20 seconds? Or the weapon-pack upgrade that adds damage?

It's a scary thought.

chessyang · Mar 23, 2011, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGizzy

Without spending a dime.

Just think

if you bought any thing from the shop you have the same results! But you know with a fancy BMP sword and Gwen's Wedding dress.

hehehe

just adding to the point it speeds up PvE. You get from A to B faster.

Gli · Mar 23, 2011, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

But you still have access to the same things. Being inefficient is part of the beginner's experience of any game.

I'm not making the efficiency argument. I don't think it can hold water. My thought is access.

When you compare two players 1-to-1 who both own all 3 campaigns and EotN, what other cash shop items add in-game advantages?

The Fire Imp is definitely arguable in Pre-searing, but not after (because of Mysterious and other summoning stones). Mercenary Heroes provide an advantage due to the imbalance of the professions.

I can't think of anything else that does that.

I'm not convinced that it makes any kind of sense to exclude the effect of campaigns upon the gameplay in other campaigns. So I can think of some things that do that.

Kharmin · Mar 23, 2011, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

What? No.

I'm going by the basic, standard definition of an advantage. For example, if you were an Olympic hurdler and suddenly the Olympics allowed every contestant who paid an extra fee to take 30 seconds off of his/her time, would that be a paid advantage?

You were doing pretty well until this. Players in PvE are not contestants. They aren't competing against each other, in the sense of the actual game-play. Time to complete goals is irrelevant.

chessyang · Mar 23, 2011, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasai

Ok.

1) make a game call it Free
2) sneak in pay content
3) ????
4) Profit!

FTFY heheheheeh but really Nope. you nailed it! Next month will see the same threads with WoC outfit or whatever comes in the few months. etc...

Karate Jesus · Mar 23, 2011, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

I'm not convinced that it makes any kind of sense to exclude the effect of campaigns upon the gameplay in other campaigns. So I can think of some things that do that.

I'm not excluding campaigns. They add an advantage. If your only consideration is black and white cohesion, then yeah they're an advantage.

The advantages gained from campaigns are justifiable to me, but that's me. This is a thread of opinion, not fact (as all are). And I think it's good for Anet to see how their community reacts to their game additions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kharmin

You were doing pretty well until this. Players in PvE are not contestants. They aren't competing against each other, in the sense of the actual game-play. Time to complete goals is irrelevant.

Depends on what guild you're in. Some people play PvE competitively. There's a reason timed speed run records exist, and a reason that these guys post their times on forums to show off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasai

Did I miss anything?

In other words:
"People aren't agreeing with my opinions, so now I'm going to troll".